Quinn Hasley

[jameson245]

Quinn Podcast Interview (part 1)


The first 19:30 of this episode for those who can't listen or prefer to read:
INTRODUCTION
Hello, and welcome back to DIE-ALOGUE: a true crime conversation. I’m your host, Rebekah Sebastian and today I am speaking with Quinn. Quinn is a childhood friend of JonBenet Ramsey, and in listening back to our conversation I have to tell you that this is exactly the kind of dialogue I imagined having when I imagined starting this podcast. I just love her candor and vulnerability and we just talked all about the things that mean so much to me and that I wonder about and I have some very in real-time conclusions and thoughts and responses to the things that she shares, and it was just a great conversation, and the fact that it was hovering around the case of JonBenet Ramsey sort of just made it icing on the cake if you ask me. So I feel extremely honored to have had this conversation and I want to thank Quinn very specifically for choosing to sit down with me and share her story and thereby share it with you. So, please enjoy this episode of DIE-ALOGUE: a true crime conversation.
REBEKAH: Quinn, welcome to DIE-ALOGUE: a true crime conversation. Thank you so much for sitting down with me today.
QUINN: Thank you so much for having me.
R: Yeah of course. I was really glad to get your message, like all good things it started on Instagram.
Q: Always, always - sliding in peoples’ DMs.
R: Yes, oh my gosh I’m like the queen of that so I appreciated it and I particularly loved that you were pitching this idea of maybe you talking on DIALOGUE because you are connected to, I think your words were, ‘a semi-popular cold case.”
Q: I think I downplayed it a little.
R: Yeah, which was good. I mean you know, the intrigue was there so I wrote back and I said, ‘just curious, which case is it?’ and you can tell us what you replied.
Q: I replied, ‘It’s the JonBenet Ramsey case.’
R: Right, I’m like I think I’ve heard of that one, say more.
Q: Yeah, people have.
R: So this is kind of exactly up my alley in terms of exploring true crime and the genre itself. There sort of is no case that embodies true crime, in a weird way the way - I would say it’s one of maybe five or ten that everybody can reference.
Q: Every kind of like true crime podcasts, books I feel like everybody’s covered this case.
R: Everybody’s covered it. And everybody knows it. She is a household name. The case is a household case. So your perspective is that of a childhood friend. So maybe we could start there, in Colorado I assume.
Q: Yes, in Colorado.
R: So, you’re from Boulder, and do you want to tell us how you came to know the Ramseys? Was it your whole family or was it just you and JonBenet through school, or, how did that come about?
Q: So, JonBenet and I went to the same preschool in Boulder, which was, it was a preschool that was housed in the church that both of our families went to - ? Prebyterian, in Boulder. So I met her, I guess I was like, three or four, in preschool. So originally it was really just, me knowing her because it was just us being in preschool together. After a while, I would say that of anybody in my family knowing anybody else closely, it would be my mom knowing Patsy. Just because they’re both moms and they’re doing playdates and stuff together so that would probably be the other family member that talked to anybody who was really in the family.
R: So, what are your first memories of her as your friend?
Q: I would say something that I always found really interesting about her, it’s a weird, distinct memory that I have is, and everybody knows that her family was fairly well off, that’s like always part of the story that I think comes up when people are discussing it - and I remember it’s just kind of getting that vibe from her family. Like, she had nicer things than some of the other kids and I remember as a kid bringing it up to her when I first met her and her being like, ‘oh, I don’t like to talk about that.’ Like, she was very aware of it as a kid, which I think is really interesting, that she didn’t want to brag about it, she was very like ‘I don’t like to talk about that my family has money,’ and like for a four year old -
R: That’s so mature. That is like an old soul.
Q: I know! I really think that she was incredibly mature for her age.
R: Wow. That’s kind of wild because most kids at that age it’s all about having the best stuff and -
Q: showing off to everybody and she was so not like that. Very humble.
R: Oh my gosh. So, I mean, Boulder as an area, nice town?
Q: Very affluent town. Not very diverse, as a town, but yeah - I mean everybody always talks about that one of the reasons why the case had so many flaws when it came to solving the crime was that things like that just don’t happen there.
R: They didn’t know how to deal with it.
Q: Yeah, like drunk college students… that’s what the police handle in Boulder, but not murders like this.
R: Right, and so you’re saying everyone sort of knew the Ramseys as this sort of especially affluent family? So even within an upscale community even they were kind of, doing better than everyone else?
Q: I would say so. I mean like everybody in Boulder, well not everybody, but, it’s definitely a pretty affluent city but I would still say that they were considered one of the more affluent families there.
R: Ok, and so, your friendship with JonBenet, I mean it obviously, and this is just where the surreal, I mean for me just talking about it, the timeline it’s obviously a very short period of time because her life was cut so tragically short. Did it go past preschool? Did you go to the same kindergarten after preschool?
Q: We did not. So we ended up going to different kindergartens, but we still remained friends and would still have playdates. We definitely didn’t see each other as often just because we’re not with each other every single day but we’d still have playdates up until she died.
R: And how about Mrs. Ramsey? Did you, do you have an impression of her? I can think of my childhood friends’ moms - they’re actually kind of a big influence in your life when your spend a lot of time -
Q: They definitely are. Yeah and I always think about that because I mean I remember having friends’ parents who like I wasn’t as big of a fan of, but I loved Patsy as a kid. She was amazing. People will always talk about that just because the family is always, you know, people aren’t the nicest about the family and I understand that and I can kind of see where people are coming from but simultaneously, I didn’t have a ton of experience really with John or Burke. I didn’t spend that much time with them, but spent a decent amount of time with Patsy and can say only nice things about her - which, I thought she was an amazing mother -
R: Good, I’m glad to hear that.
Q: Very attentive to JonBenet and very sweet to us. I mean, I never had any bad experiences with her.
R: That makes me happy. The pageant thing - was that happening, how did you, did you have consciousness of it ?
Q: Yeah, definitely. I mean, this is always something that comes up with people when they talk about the pageant thing and I know that, a lot of the things I see about it are people saying ‘oh, she was obviously forced into this thing’ and that like because Patsy did the pageants she wanted to have like a little mini-me and honestly, I didn’t see that. Again, I was a kid so there could have been things that I was missing but when JonBenet would talk to me about pageants, I only just remember her being extremely proud of them and showing off the trophies that she had won and writing me postcards like, ‘I’m at this one right now and I’m so excited to do it.’ I also remember, there was one time as a kid, Patsy invited me, JonBenet, and my mom to go watch Patsy in this kind of pageant fashion thing that she was doing in Boulder so I always felt that JonBenet’s pageants were just her wanting to be like her mom.
R: That was their connection.
Q: Yeah, that was a connection that they had. I never got the impression that she was forced into doing anything or that she didn’t enjoy what she was doing. I went to a couple of pageant rehearsals with her, she always seemed to be really enjoying herself. So I never got the impression that it was like, ‘I’m being forced to do this thing and I hate it.’ I mean I remember doing soccer and playing instruments as a kid and hating it.
R: Yeah, most of us have something like that in our childhood!
Q: Just like, I don’t wanna be doing this, and I think kids are pretty vocal about those kinds of things when they don’t want to do them, and I never heard anything like that from her.
R: Ok, I’m glad to hear that too. Did you want to do it? Did it like, I have that best friend that I kind of envied certain things she did or was able to do -
Q: Oh my god, yes. You got to wear the pretty dresses, you got to do your hair, you got to travel. I mean I thought it was the coolest thing when I was a kid.
R: How did your mom perceive it? Do you remember her having an opinion on it like, ‘no it’s not for you or us’ or?
Q: I don’t know. I mean, I was a dancer as a kid so I think I kind of had that similar outlet of like I liked to perform and I get to put makeup on and it’s not like anything weird, it’s just me and what I do for my dance show. This is how I perform. I put on a costume, kind of thing. So I think I found similarities through that.
R: Ok, and then your mom and Mrs. Ramsey, whose name is escaping me - it’s Patricia, right?
Q: Yeah, Patsy. Patricia.
R: Patsy! So, were they friendly? I mean it sounds like you had some experience together the four of you and I guess this move us a little bit more into the future and present - does your mom have perceptions of Patsy and are they pretty aligned with yours?
Q: Yeah. I have not had lengthy discussions with my mom about Patsy. I do know that she met with her a couple of times after JonBenet died. I remember ones of those times. I remember one of those times because Patsy came over, I think this was after they had moved out of Boulder, too.
R: And how soon was that after JonBenet died?
Q: I don’t think it took them very long because they also already had other houses so I think they just went to just go - because I mean like, it’s a lot, living in that house, I can’t even fathom what that would feel like. So it was pretty soon after, I think, and I remember her coming over and she had brought me like a little teddy bear with angel wings, and the teddy bear if you squeezed its hand would say ‘I’m your guardian angel’ and so, she was very, I think she did an amazing job with me as a kid and understanding -
R: Wait so this is Patsy or your mom?
Q: Patsy had brought me that.
R: Was it JonBenet’s or had she just got it for you?
Q: No, she had just gotten it for me.
R: That’s very thoughtful.
Q: Yeah, and I have a couple of letters that she wrote to me and my mom afterwards so I mean she really kept in touch a little bit, I think obviously she was going through a lot and then she had the battle with cancer that she was going through later, so they weren’t extremely close but there was definitely a little bit of contact afterwards.
R: We’ve already gone to the death of JonBenet but let’s go back to maybe right before it happened and leading up - so she was six?
Q: She was six.
R: And you were six? You were the same age?
Q: Yes.
R: So you’re six year old, and news, I mean how quickly did your family hear and the community and what did that look like? Who told you and what did they say?
Q: Obviously it traveled very quickly and because it was such a high profile case it was everywhere, immediately.
R: On the news all day and all night.
Q: My mom actually, this is something that I didn’t even know she did. She tells me these things like years after it happened, but, so you know in the grocery stores that you go up and there’s those trashy magazines? Tabloids? And so she actually went to our local grocery store and told them ‘you have to take these down because my child is going to be here. This just happened to her. You have to take these down because they’re at eye height and she’s gonna see these and this is like the last thing that she needs right now.’ So she like she made them take it down in the grocery store.
R: What a hero.
Q: I know, my mom - same thing, I went to a doctor’s office to get my DNA taken for the FBI and the FBI tried to talk to me and my mom was like, ‘no, you don’t get to talk to my child. This is gonna be so traumatic for her.’ And same with my pediatrician. Immediately was like, ‘nope, you’re not allowed to come into the room.’
R: Wow, so wait the FBI wanted your DNA?
Q: Yes.
R: Because you’d been in that house?
Q: Because I’d been in the house.
R: So timeline, what do you think, was that days after?
Q: I don’t even, I don’t even remember it.
R: So you’re getting your DNA collected, FBI, how does your mom tell you like, ‘that’s what we’re doing today - like, going to get your DNA’?
Q: So she, what she tells me she had told me because I did not have any memory of this as a kid - she told me that we had to go to the doctor’s office because I had to get a strep test done which makes sense because if they’re swabbing my mouth for DNA I would have thought it was a step test. Or I think she said something about like ‘kids are getting strep at school, we have to double check to make sure you’re ok’ kind of a thing. And I just took that as a kid, so -
R: Your mom is emerging as the hero just more and more throughout this story.
Q: She’s definitely my hero.
R: That makes sense. That’s what I would hope to think of if um, I was in that situation, also what’s DNA? Like a four year old, or, six year old you know, there’s not context.
Q: Yeah, I probably would have had zero understanding of that.
R: So, they were doing that because you’d been in the home. So this is an investigation.
Q: Yeah, you know they have to investigate anybody who had recently been in the home or who was close with the family so -
R: How aware of that were you, at six?
Q: I was not aware that I would have been in any way associated with a case, for sure, that definitely did not hit me at all. I don’t honestly, and this is like now an interesting thing to think about, I don’t really remember what age I was when I finally realized that like her family was being investigated. Cause I know that I had that realization at some point but I don’t really remember how old I was ‘cause my parents really were like, I told you about getting the tabloids taken down and if it ever came on the TV they would turn it off.
R: So they were really sheltering you from the reality of what was happening. But I’m sure if I were to interview your mom, it was probably going rampant like through the mom circuit.
Q: I cannot even imagine. We stopped going to church because it was such an issue and then people at church were turning against the Ramseys and there was a lot of internal drama and so like we stopped going to church because it was all over the church. So there was a lot of like, things that I didn’t realize were happening when I was a kid that my parents were obviously dealing with and trying to keep me as removed from it as possible.
R: Was there any trickle-down on the first-grade, second-grade level of kids? I mean obviously a classmate was lost, you weren’t in her same school, but a child in your community, were kids talking about that?
Q: I remember me bringing it up to other kids ‘cause I think as like a six, seven year old learning how to process that was really difficult. So I remember talking about her a lot as a kid to other kids. And that was mainly it was like ‘she was one of my best friends’ and ‘she was so amazing’ and that kind of stuff. So I remember doing that as a kid and they had heard of her. So it was obviously, I mean you talk to I think anybody who was old enough and especially anybody who was living in Boulder that because it was kind of everywhere and all over the news and everything that people were aware even if they were kids of at least who she was.
R: There was this collective consciousness of the story and the case. But I’m curious because the family and the police put out the kidnapping story and the ransom note, was the town like ‘oh my gosh there’s a kidnapper on the loose?’ Was there any more locking of doors and safety talks? Do you remember that or do your parents?
Q: I don’t remember - I remember as a kid kind of because afraid because when my parents told me what had happened it was like under the thing of somebody broke into their house and did this thing and I remember, I mean me and my sister both talk about just being terrified. Like, I had nightmares for a very long - like it - ‘cause you’re just like, ‘oh, I didn’t realize that that was a thing that could happen as a kid’ so it’s this realization of like sometimes people do bad things to children and kind of realizing that at a pretty young age.
R: Your poor parents had to sit down and do that, so - talk about that moment. Do you remember that or is this more kind of like family memory that you share between you or do you remember that moment?
Q: I remember it, my sister I think remembers it more.
R: She was older?
Q: Yeah, she was older. If I was six, my sister would have been nine when it was happening so I think she has a stronger memory of it. I mean I do remember being sat down, it was like we had just had a playdate with two other friends and my sister and I were downstairs and I remember my parents sitting me down and essentially saying what happened, that somebody had broken into the house and that she was dead and that’s kind of the majority of what I really remember from it.
R: But you wouldn’t say there was widespread panic around Boulder, in terms of intruders.
Q: If there was I don’t think I was aware of it. I definitely think that it could have been a possibility. I think it’s kind of like, you hear about this with any town where something like this happens and it’s not something that towns are used to where, now it’s just this realization of oh you have to lock the door and this was something that could happen here and we didn’t realize that this was something that could happen here.
R: It’s like a loss of innocence on this macro-level in a community.
Q: Yes, definitely.


That is part one - - will post the rest as it becomes available.

[jameson245]

Part 2

R: It’s like a loss of innocence on this macro-level in a community.
Q: Yes, definitely.
R: In a community that’s fortunate enough not to have things happen like that all the time.
Q: Yeah, I mean like, you think about it, in New York City we hear about break-ins all the time, and it’s like okay yeah it happened but it’s not nearly that same level of like oh my God, I didn’t realize this could happen as you would in a place like Boulder.
R: Yeah, the expectation here is that you kind of that it could. Child abduction, not so much. But surely break-ins.
Q: Yeah, not so much.
R: So, let’s go to like middle school, high school. By then it must be like, strangely like urban legend I would think. Was it? Was it the source of chatter and speculation or was it forgotten?
Q: I would not necessarily say forgotten because I do think that, and it still happens to this day, I don’t know every year or every so often something comes out with the case and now it’s all over the news again. So I think that it would still come up, but I have to say that after having lived in Boulder and then moved elsewhere, that feeling of like ooh folklore exists much more so outside of Boulder.
R: Oh, interesting. Is there an accepted stance on the case within Boulder?
Q: Oh. That’s an excellent question.
R: Not that you’re Boulder’s representative, I’m not holding you to that - but do you get the sense that the whole community is like we’re pretty much sure this is what happened, or not so much?
Q: I don’t know, I feel like there’s probably still a decent split, and I’m sure that there are still other people who live in Boulder who were close with the Ramseys or who were closer to the case like I was who will have their own opinions, but I don’t know. I’m not aware of it being definitive, like everybody thinks it’s this thing. I do think that coming from Boulder, because there were so many people who were close to the case, I think that it’s treated a lot more gently than maybe other places where it’s just like this is a really sad thing that happened in our community, and less of like oh this is an entertaining thing that we all want to find out more about.
R: You’re saying it’s treated more gently within the community, from the inside?
Q: Yeah, from my personal experience that’s what I’ve found.
R: That’s good, and that kind of leads into what we first started messaging about which is, how do we as consumers of true crime content, which I assume you are cause you found me and you reached out, how do you do it? How do you be mindful, thoughtful people who are drawn to these stories… You know, someone pointed out to me that I interviewed, they’re like, ‘you know, people like a good story with a beginning, middle and an end’ and there is no bigger beginning, middle, and end than in a murder case. And then it could even lead into a like a who dunnit so this whole second act happens. How do we do that? How do we engage it? How do we be part of it without completely exploiting real humans, yourself and your family, and your community at the same time?
Q: I think that’s an interesting question and that is why I originally messaged you because I think that whereas there’s so much true crime stuff out there now but I don’t think that that’s a discussion that happens super often in the true crime sphere, so I think it’s a really interesting one. I will say that I did not get super into true crime until Serial came out and that was my sort of oh okay I’m really super interested in this. And I think I had for a very long time a really serious aversion to true crime.
R: I mean that makes sense. Do you think that was subconscious?
Q: I think that I just thought about it from my perspective, and I was like this is awful, and I’ve been that person on the other end of this and so when they’re talking about like friends and family members of the person who was murdered, I was like that’s me. I’ve been through that, and so I think part of me was pretty put off by some of it sometimes and I’m still put off by some of it to be honest, so there’s that, but I also fully understand how interesting all of it is because I listen to true crime podcasts and I watch the documentaries on Netflix. It’s definitely so interesting, even just from a basic human psychology standpoint - it’s fascinating.
R: Okay, so how do you think victims are, I just - speak for yourself and possibly your family, but in terms of grieving and experiencing a loss and coping and processing and then you’ve got this super publicised case. And maybe you were young enough that you almost didn’t really have to reckon with that. But looking back on it now, and maybe with your own experience offering that in terms of stories now, do you think true crime and the creation of these stories and putting them out for people to consume, do you think that is a barrier or is that hindering people’s grieving process who are actually in it?
Q: Interesting. I think it has the potential to make it more difficult. Speaking from personal experience, I think the one thing that has made it more difficult is that it keeps coming back. You know, people who are going through a grieving process, I think that it’s never gonna go away entirely, obviously, but when it keeps getting brought up over and over again it’s just like going through it constantly.
R: Yeah, that makes moving on really hard.
Q: Yeah. And I think that I get random, ‘cause I’m always kind of expecting it, especially now with like TV shows and podcasts and documentaries and stuff, that I’m a little bit more used to now just because I feel like, especially recently, it's just become so popular and I know that it’s a really interesting case so I know that it’s gonna come up. Other times when it comes up it’s sometimes a little bit more jarring, like I was in - where was I? I’m trying to think. I can’t remember if I was in Minnesota or Wisconsin. I was on a family vacation and we went to a art museum, and one of the art installations was this Andy Warhol-esque picture of JonBenet. It’s things like that where I’m just not expecting it and I’m not prepared for it and then it happens and I’ve gotten a lot more used to it now, and I mean you never get fully used to that but it’s still like a jarring thing that you’re just not prepared for at that time.
R: Yeah, I could totally see how that would really throw you off. And with these cold cases in particular, ones that didn’t go through the - well I guess it did go through a civil trial but didn’t get adjudicated in a traditional sense, it feels like they keep reopening them because they can. That’s like the hook of Serial and all these shows is that they’re ongoing and they’re still mysteries. So that’s really difficult in terms of closure, I would think, and I just can’t even imagine the Ramsey family themselves having to endure that for so so many years.
Q: Yeah I can’t imagine.
R: So, in particular this case, it has the makings of everything we quote-unquote “love,” in a true crime case - is there anything else, what about it in your mind stand out, and why do you think this is one that we can count on one hand that everybody can reference and visualize and knows immediately what we’re talking about.
Q: Sure, I mean I think that there’s a few things. One is how poorly it was investigated originally, that it’s this oh my God, if only the police had handled it differently, maybe you would have found who done it and I feel like that is a huge part of it. I think the fact that it happened in a town like Boulder which is that like, stereotypical true crime town, that like ‘nothing ever happened in Boulder,’ so it’s got all that and then you have a wealthy family, you have the ooh was it a kidnapping?, was it a ransom?, and then you also have that every single picture that is used in the media of JonBenet is her with like her hair done and her makeup done and like 95% of the time, that’s not what she looked like. And so very rarely are you seeing her just as like this normal kid, you’re seeing her like very done-up as a six year old with makeup and hair and costumes and stuff.
R: And those images are really powerful. And obviously they sold those tabloids, and that’s why they printed them. And this was the 90s, so our iPhones were probably not as good as, they didn’t have, well actually they probably had a lot of photos of her. I mean, they had to have selected those to use on purpose.
Q: Yeah, some of that is just media tactic and how do I sell something?
R: But when I try to look for pictures of JonBenet when I’m doing my true crime trivia show or something, I have to go so out of my way to find one with her hair not curled and without makeup. Which makes me so sad.
Q: Looking like a normal kid - I know, and that’s really who she was the vast majority of the time you know, she was a normal kid.
R: Something I like to think about is what are we talking about when we talk about true crime and I think in each story or case that we look at we’re probably talking about maybe different themes but in this case I feel like some kind of obvious themes pop up and you’re kind of like circling around them from how I hear you describing what people loved ab- what people obsessed over, I should say - in this case. What do you think we’re talking about when we talk about the JonBenet Ramsey case?
Q: I think first off, people are always fascinated with something about like a family, could the family have been involved in the murder of their child? I think with any true crime case where that’s something, it’s just instantly fascinating to people so I think that that’s a huge thing. I think people, I think that they just like that sort of hyperbolic story of like oh look at ALL of these THINGS that were going on in that family at that time and it’s, people find that so interesting.
R: I think we also love stories about wealthy people and they’re not as perfect as we thought they could be.
Q: I always tell my dad that’s why I watch Real Housewives, is ‘cause I’m like I like to know that even with all that money, they’re still having problems. It makes me feel better.
R: They’re still having problems, they’re still screwing up all the time. So, what I like about what’s happening in true crime is we’re hearing a lot more cases from people in the margins and a lot more cases that need so much more amplification. And typically, those are stories about people who are very poor.
Q: Poor, or a minority, and it’s just this ignored, on the fringe, they should have seen it because of their life, type of thing.
R: Exactly. This case is like the polar opposite. They’ve got all the money, it’s a good looking family, upstanding and I’m just, I wrestle so much with why even I find that so irresistible.
Q: And it is, and it’s the reason why those cases get so much more media coverage is because people just kind of eat that up.
R: Exactly. So speaking of media coverage, have people sought you out? I mean I would imagine in the effort to put forth yet another JonBenet story, they’d be like who are are childhood friends, let me find them.
Q: Yes, so I have only ever been contacted once, which is actually like kind of shocking to me and I don’t know if that’s just because I was so young at the time and so it’s a little bit less of like, she’s gonna know what happened because I was too young to really understand, like what am I gonna tell you? CBS, when they did their docuseries -
R: Was this Dr. Phil’s?
Q: No, this was not Dr. Phil. They did like a, and now I can’t even remember it, Laura Richards was one of the people who was running it and she was the one who actually called me to ask me if I would be willing.
R: I love Laura Richards. British Laura Richards?
Q: British Laura Richards, yes. And at first she had like left a message for me, asking me to call her back and so I Googled her, being like who is this person and why are they calling me?, and found her social media profiles and I was immediately like oh, I know what this is about. And so, called her back, and to be honest I looked up a lot of Laura Richards’ work while I was Googling her and I think that she does amazing work, um, I will say that how she sold it to me was maybe not the most tactful way to sell the whole idea to me so I immediately was like, ‘I’m probably not interested.’ Part of the reason I contacted you is if I’m going to tell my story I would like to do it partially on my own terms and know exactly what’s coming out, and I feel like a network like CBS is mainly doing something because they know it’s gonna get views so it’s gonna make them money and I didn’t want anything I said to be twisted or to be used against me and I didn’t really want that high profile of media coverage either because I’ve gotten people on social media who try to friend request me and send me messages like ‘oh I found your name in a book, you were friends with JonBenet, can we talk about it?’
R: That is so wild.
Q: Yeah. First of all for anyone who’s listening to this, don’t ever do that with anybody’s friends or family members if they’re related to a murder case ‘cause that is just, I don’t wanna talk about it with a stranger. It’s completely inappropriate. Yes, I get that it’s interesting, but also that’s kind of a line that I would draw for myself is people doing something like that but Laura when she called me, she explained what they were doing, that they were really trying to figure out who had done it and that they had more resources and they were gonna spend the time and that she was hoping to give the friends and family closure. Which is kind of ironic looking at it now because they had like that whole legal case with Burke where he sued them and so -
R: This is the one where they really went in on Burke.
Q: Yes, they really went in on Burke in this one and I just kind of told her as politely as I could that I thought that she was trying to find closure for the people who are consuming this as entertainment and not actually trying to find closure for the people who were close to the family. And that I didn’t want to be a part of it.
R: Woah, mic drop. Don’t drop my mic.
Q: Yes.
R: Wow, that takes a lot of maturity and self-possession and I think humility to be able to say that. And also guts.
Q: Trust me, I was like shaking during the entire phone call.
R: That’s really like a respectable move. I’m very impressed by that. So you ended up watching that because you kind of saw that play out.
Q: I didn’t watch the entire thing. I never - I listen to a lot of true crime and stuff and if I hear a true crime podcast is going to do a JonBenet episode I skip it. I don’t watch episodes on any TV shows about it, I don’t watch movies about it. I’ve walked in on roommates watching documentaries before and I just kind of turn around and walk back out of the room and then let them know like hey, this is something I’m associated with.
R: So they wouldn’t know in that scenario, it’d be just a random -
Q: It’s not usually what I lead with when I - my name is Quinn and I knew JonBenet.
R: That would be really weird. And what about your family, now? As a family, is it a wound? Is it something that you guys still need to process together or not so much?
Q: I think a little bit. I mean, definitely like I kind of said I think that my sister and my dad were slightly removed from the family but definitely not removed from the case obviously, and actually I had visited them, they’re all out in Colorado still so I went to visit them I guess about a month ago and brought up the fact that I was going to talk to you, and this is obviously like the first time that I’ve ever really spoken publicly about the case, so we were kind of all telling our own personal stories about it and you know, my sister’s talking about she was at like a dinner party one time and people started talking about the case and she just didn’t know how to handle it. My dad was golfing with people one time and people brought up the case, cause it’s still obviously a topic of conversation and then if like a show or a documentary has recently come out then all of a sudden it gets brought back up for a lot of people. So, they kind of have the same thing as me, where you don’t think about it daily but every once in a while something comes up and my family a lot of times I think is just kind of like I don’t want to talk about it with people, you know?
R: Yeah, and it has to be this event, this trauma that did, not cast a shadow - but it impacted your family for a period of time for sure.
Q: I mean it shaped our lives for sure.
R: Yeah, and your neighborhood, I’m sure.
Q: Yes.
R: Um, I loved your tip before, you know to anybody who’s super interested and compelled by this case not to reach out to loved ones and family members of victims. Are there any other things, what are ways we can be honoring and respectful of victims’ families in the process of being drawn to these stories? And even in spite of ourselves sometimes, reading and getting involved and now crowdsourcing and getting involved on this whole other level… how could we, in your opinion do you think there’s a way to do that and be respectful and sensitive?
Q: I think that there is. I think that when it comes to any true crime case that there’s, I mean you were talking about this before where there’s like, people just want to talk about it. It’s this reaction of you bring up a case, especially if it’s like a particularly interesting case, and people just want to have a conversation about it so I think that that’s fine, I don’t find any problem with that. I think that, and I can only really speak from personal experience of the things that have upset me in the past, people taking pictures outside of her house, like going to Boulder specifically for the purpose of going to the house is a little weird to me. I can kind of understand it from like a ‘oh this is where this thing happened,’ it’s kind of like going to a haunted house, you know? But like it still seems a little weird to me and a little disrespectful.
R: Yeah, I’m thinking through that in real time and trying to find my reaction because I’m like that’s in poor taste, but I also can’t say if I was in Boulder that I wouldn’t be like hey drive by the JonBenet house. I don’t know that I’d post it.
Q: I think maybe that’s a part of it too. It’s like, how public are you making this? Like, if you’re posting things to Instagram with like the hashtag #atthejonbenetramseyhouse, that to me is a little like -
R: Yeah, I’m also not gonna say I wouldn’t do it because, I’m just so nervous that I’m like thinking through my feed, but I’ve never been to Boulder so I probably haven’t done that. But I’m like have I done something else? I really like to think I am thoughtful and trying to be - ‘cause I think I’m naturally a compassionate person but I can get very fired up about true crime - but what you’re saying is challenging me in a really good way to just maybe it’s like some self-check before you do something.
Q: I think if it’s even like taking a beat and being like okay, how does this come across to other people? Other things have been like there’s T-shirts that have been made with her picture on it.
R: Okay, that’s horrific.
Q: Um, people getting her face tattooed on them.
R: That’s just silly.
Q: To me, it’s just like creepy and I don’t understand and what I think is so interesting is something that I’ve had to check myself on is when I was a kid, I was like obsessed with Marilyn Monroe. I thought she was amazing, I watched all of her movies, and I know that this is slightly inappropriate but sometimes people draw similarities ‘cause it’s like pretty blonde person who died tragically and I remember as a kid and a teenager, I had shirts with her picture on it now and it took me a second and I was thinking about it and I’m like, is that okay? So I think that there’s times even with myself yeah that I have to check myself and think like am I okay with this like ok, she was a celebrity, she was an actress, does that make this more okay? But I don’t think that there’s like a hlack and white when it comes to this stuff, I think a lot of it is a pretty grey area so, when people are taking pictures outside the house and posting it to Instagram, they’re probably not thinking like oh, maybe one of her friends or family members is gonna see this. Like that’s probably not what’s going through their head at the moment.
R: No, it’s certainly not. And maybe it should be and I think it’s a really worthwhile thing to put out there and think about for all of us who do consume this - I’m sure everyone listening is you know can point to something that maybe they’ve done that they’re like ‘uhh’ so I think what we’re talking about is the dark side of true crime and that this is subjective, too. You know, what one - you said it very well. This is very grey, and what you or I find offensive somebody else wouldn’t. And why I think it’s so great to give people like you a microphone, where you feel unedited and not in control by a greater organization, um not naming names, networks - what that gives is just another perspective and a place to kind of wrestle this out and that’s exactly what I want to do on DIE-ALOGUE. I don’t think there are easy answers to any of this. I like poking sticks and asking people so I appreciate your candor on this. I know there’s no hard and fast line in the sand on this, but I do think putting out some suggestions of what has turned you off and what has helped you is great. Yeah, that’s another thing. What has kind of been a really comforting thing, or reassuring thing is it seems like you’ve stayed away from a lot of the stories about her.
Q: Yeah, definitely stayed away. I mean every once in a while, I kind of fall into it. I think the first time that I remember actually looking into anything was when John Mark Karr, is I believe his name, when he came forward and said that he had done it and it was all over the media that was honestly probably the first time I looked into anything about the case.
R: And how old are you, ish?
Q: I would have been, I was in college. It was my freshman year of college, so I was 18 when that happened. I think that that was honestly the first time that I looked into literally anything about the case. Like, I would hear little bits and pieces just because it’s so widespread, but that was -
R: You started going down the path a little bit.
Q: Yeah, a little bit then and I think that that was the first time that I did that. Honestly, I think that a lot of it is when people do show respect for it, that that means a lot. Even if that’s just saying like, ‘what a tragedy,’ or ‘she was a beautiful kid,’ and like respecting her for who she actually was, I think that that’s extremely meaningful.
R: I think so too, and I think - I just keep thinking of reasons why I’m so happy to be talking to you but one of them is you know, humanizing a family, like I’m I’m realizing this as we’re talking, we’ve almost made caricatures out of the Ramseys and not just JonBenet.
Q: It is easy to do with that stuff.
R: It is and we’ve probably, there’s probably a few other cases, although none quite like this to be really honest and just the disgust and the contempt for her parents is palpable and I felt it myself for numerous reasons regardless of who I think did it but people like you remind us, they add just the human element to the story which is these were people living in a town sending their children to school, having friendships, going to church, working jobs, and when I talk about JonBenet sometimes it honestly feels like an inanimate object.
Q: It’s easy to distance yourself, and I think you’re right, especially with a case like this where it does feel like it’s so distant for people. Like it doesn’t ever feel like you’re talking about a real kid or a real family.
R: It’s like folklore almost.
Q: Yeah, and pop culture.
R: Yeah. It’s so bizarre and it’s sobering in a really welcome way to just remind myself that I’m really really grateful for this conversation, and that, this is my version of the JonBenet T-Shirt, is one of my teams, I hope they don’t mind me calling them out because they’re five-borough champions, regulars at Yellow Tape, but they’re team name is Small Foreign Faction. Which, I’m sorry, I think it’s an amazing team name and anybody who knows true crime and the JonBenet Ramsey case -
Q: would immediately know what it is.
R: - resonates, and when they say they won people go crazy. But now I’m looking at it and it’s, is that one of those small markers of just the way we’ve been too flippant?
Q: Right.
R: Do you think? I’m asking you, if you feel like answering.
Q: I mean, I think that it’s a marker as much as so many other things are a marker of just like how easy it is sometimes to distance yourself from these cases and not really think of them as like actual people. Honestly, I think part of that sometimes is self-preservation. God, can you imagine how heavy it would be to always hear about these cases and to be listening to things about these cases and watching things about these cases and really feel the full impact of a child being murdered?
R: That’s a great point.
Q: Yeah, it almost makes it easier to digest when you do have that distance for yourself. So I also understand it from, I mean some of the podcasts that I’ve listened to, I’ve listened to episodes and it’s just like oh, that totally bummed me out and I feel really sad right now with certain cases. So I do think that part of it is also just a human reaction of self-preservation.
R: Yeah, it’s a total coping mechanism. I think that’s a really good point and one of my former guests brought up this idea of sitting in sadness, and we’re not super good at that - so maybe it’s also sort of taking that beat before you decide to do something or post something, it’s also taking that moment and being like I’m gonna be sad about this, and maybe refrain from a quippy comment and actually just feel the feeling. And again, I have a Yellow Tape true crime trivia show that is entertaining, so it’s a fine line to walk.
Q: It really is, and again, I get the entertainment factor. I too, am entertained by true crime.
R: You imbibe on that from time to time.
Q: Yeah.
R: I also think, just to get real literal, not to put too fine a point on this with Small Foreign Faction, I think the reason why that joke lands and why I think I’m still okay with it is ‘cause a lot of us believe that is just - they don’t exist.
Q: No. The terrorist group?
R: Okay, so whether that infringes on maybe the theories or puts the family in a certain spotlight, like I think we can all agree that small foreign faction is not a thing, except for like, a team name in my trivia show.
Q: Right. So it feels like a little bit less connected. I get what you’re saying with that.
R: I guess the question that’s on many people’s minds, because they’ve very, in no uncertain terms messaged me as such, are you - do you have a stance and do you have a belief about what happened and if so are you willing to share it? And no pressure.
Q: I would say that first off, I would imagine that everybody listening to this podcast right now knows infinitely more details about the case than I do because I, for again my own mental health have never delved deeply into the case, just because I don’t wanna know the details of it. Yeah, it’s like who would wanna sit around for hours thinking about the details of how their friend was murdered? So I think that people ask that question a lot to me when they find out and part of my answer is just like, honestly, I don’t know. Partially because I’m just incredibly ignorant of a lot of the details of the case, intentionally. The only thing that I would say is that I know that a lot of people think that the family in some way was connected even if they don’t think that they personally did anything, that they knew something or whatever Agan, I was not super close with Burke. I was not super close with John. From my personal experiences with Patsy, I have a hard time believing that. And that’s again, just, as a kid never had that feeling from her. I remember going to JonBenet’s memorial service and Patsy coming up to me and hugging me afterwards and she, I had never seen grief like that in my entire life. So I think that it’s really easy to go, like, well on that TV interview they didn’t act sad enough. And it’s like, okay, but also you weren’t there during those times when they were showing that.
R: I hope you never have to be, you know?
Q: Exactly. That’s the only thing that I can say from personal experience, um, yeah about what I think happened.
R: And I don’t think you should answer for your family, but does your, do your parents have a perspective?
Q: I honestly have no idea.
R: I can’t believe you don’t go home at Thanksgiving and you’re like, Mom, give it to me straight.
Q: That’s ‘cause it really is, like I’m saying like there’s so many details about like my mom hiding the tabloids and like the FBI and stuff but like I didn’t know until years and years afterwards and I think it was just like, it wasn’t the time to talk to me about it as a kid and then so much time had passed that by the time I was old enough to really have those conversations, it was just something that we were like, we don’t really need to have a conversation about this.
R: Yeah, they clearly prioritized other things, above making sure you knew their theory. And then that was like job well done on their part so no, I do not judge them. I think I might be just a little bit less well adjusted than you ‘cause I’m like oh yeah I would badger my mom. And I would watch all the things and I would Google everything and that’s just my own sad darkness. You’ve really just painted a really lovely picture of JonBenet and your friendship and how this affected your life. And shaped memories, and moving forward now as an adult who lives in New York City and you know, dabbles in true crime, for lack of a better word, you know - the conflict is there, but I also see a lot of resolution and self-possession on how you’re coping with all that.
Q: Yeah. And I think that it was, and still is, a growing process and I think that I probably wouldn’t have been in the headspace to do this you know, earlier in my life, to talk about it in a more like professional and adult kind of a fashion I guess. It definitely took a while to get there. I think that it’s still a process.
R: Yeah, it’s gonna unfold. I’m sure that’s a bit of a journey and I think sometimes we forget things or push things away for a long time and then when we’re ready we can unpack them a little bit.
Q: And I think I honestly did that, I kind of pushed a lot of it to the back of my mind when I was growing up and it really wasn’t until I think I was just old enough and mature enough to really sit like you were saying with the sadness and with my feelings about the whole thing. I think that it took a while to get there but once I did I think it helps a lot to be able to really sit in that and feel that and you’re like, that’s okay. It’s reasonable to feel this way about this
R: Well said. To end on a bit of a lighter note, or not, because this is a question I ask all my guests at the end, and the answers have really varied. Actually before I ask you that, I’m curious, do you have an all-time favorite podcast or for lack of a better word, I know we talk about “loving” a case, or you know, we’re not saying we love that these murders happen but is there a case that is like for someone else’s JonBenet Ramsey, for you? Serial got you hooked.
Q: Serial got me hooked. I would say it’s probably still Serial. And I think that there’s something about that case because it is unsolved, it is that cold case thing, like well maybe he did it and like the number of times during that podcast where I was like well maybe but I don’t actually know, oh gosh -
R; That experience is unlike anything.
Q: So I think that that was definitely - and I also think that the thing that I really liked about Serial and other true crime things, and this is something that my mom is really interested in, is that idea of really getting a fair trial, and how many people have kind of been screwed over by the justice system. That is something that is extremely interesting to me so I think that a lot of those cases are also really appealing to me where you’re looking at like you know Central Park 5 and that kind of stuff where it’s just like these cases that went horribly wrong because of the criminal justice system and whether or not somebody actually did something, the fact that they were not given a fair trial is something that I think we all as society are kind of finding more about now and hopefully do something to change.
R: Yes, you’re hitting on such an important thing that is coming up a lot in the conversations I’m having for the podcast. I feel like the true crime genre started off as this, you know, high profile, glossy murder throw up the splashiest picture, make it sexy, and it’s moving into this expose on America and all the things that are wrong and like the criminals are us and we’ve been doing this for a really long time and it’s a problem. And that excites me. That, coupled with like, the conflict of how do we obsess over true crime well, if you will, and that being exposed, like that’s exciting to me. It’s painful because we have to look at you know, our justice system -
Q: You’re confronted with some things that are a little bit uncomfortable to actually thing about.
R: Ooh, man. Yeah. And people in power are the ones that are not looking great. And it’s not gonna be pretty. And we all have to take some collective ownership in this, but no, I think you’re hitting on something so important. I think Serial unleashed so many great - I’m sure they were happening before, I know Serial just really got everyone’s attention.
Q: Yeah that was a huge boon for like the true crime genre in general.
R: It really was and now I think we’re just - and citizens are just more informed now. I mean, I feel like I know so much more about the justice system from watching Making a Murderer and following Adnan’s case, and that’s gonna make me a better juror, it’s gonna make me a better citizen.
Q: Yeah, definitely. I think that it’s only helpful for everyone to actually know what’s really happening.
R: Agreed. So to get to my last question, I ask my guests, what is keeping you up at night? It could be an amazing book that you can’t put down, it could be climate change, it could be that you have nothing to eat for breakfast. And feel free to take a minute ‘cause I actually meant to tell you this before we recorded so take a beat if you need it.
Q: No, I can tell you what was keeping me up at night but I just finished it and that is Stranger Things. I was late to the game. I like hadn’t for whatever reason, I was like watching other things and just didn’t start it. I think I watched like the first episode when it came out and then like didn’t really go down the rabbit hole, so when season 3 came out, I had to binge the entire series. So I just recently finished Stranger Things.
R: So what time period are we talking, like, how long did this take you to get through all three?
Q: An embarrassingly short period of time.
R: I was hoping, I was hoping. Was it like couple weeks?
Q: I think it was a couple weeks, I would say a couple weeks yeah it was pretty bad to where it’s just like, oh I don’t need to do anything else on a Sunday besides watch Stranger Things, that’s fine.
R: That’s so reasonable. I have not watched season 3 yet. It’s almost like I’m saving it - do you ever do that?
Q: Well it’s the bummer with bingewatching shows is it goes so quickly and then there’s nothing for you.
R: Exactly. I’ve actually since I started the show I’ve watched so much less which I think in some ways is really really good and in other ways I’m like I have so much good TV to catch up on. So between now and the end of the year I have a lot to watch and that is one of them. Good answer. Quinn, thank you so much for your candor. I’m honored that you would my show and this very new podcast to share your story.
Q: Thank you so much for having me. Really, I wanted to have a conversation with somebody who I felt would actually really capture my voice and my story well, and I think that you’ve done that.
R: I’m so honored by that, thank you so much.