03-01-2017, 09:55 PM
I'm going to show you these
2 and see if, first of all, can you explain to me
3 how you got into that window, while I'm showing
4 (INAUDIBLE)?
5 JOHN RAMSEY: Well you can just lift the
6 grate out and slide it out, lay it on the ground
7 and then jump down into the well.
8 LOU SMIT: And when you slide it out, what
9 do you mean by sliding it out?
10 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I think there was a
11 couple of supports on the side (INAUDIBLE) went
12 here and just lift that up. I didn't lift it up.
13 LOU SMIT: Right, and then straight down.
14 JOHN RAMSEY: I think I probably lifted it
15 up and just pulled it away from the hole.
16 LOU SMIT: And then did you have any trouble
17 getting in?
18 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
19 LOU SMIT: And how much do you weigh? Right
20 about then?
21 JOHN RAMSEY: Probably about what I do now:
22 195.
23 LOU SMIT: And you're how tall?
24 JOHN RAMSEY: Five ten, nine and a half.
25 LOU SMIT: And you say that you went down
0220
1 in there and you had taken your clothing off?
2 JOHN RAMSEY: I had my suit on, so I took
3 my suit coat off and my pants off so I wouldn't
4 (INAUDIBLE). I might have taken my shirt off. But
5 it's not difficult to get in. it would be
6 difficult to get out; you needed something to step
7 on. But basically you just open the window and
8 just let yourself drop down on the ground.
9 LOU SMIT: Have you ever gotten out that
10 way?
11 JOHN RAMSEY: No. I've (INAUDIBLE) the house.
12 LOU SMIT: Do you know anyone that has?
13 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I don't.
14 LOU SMIT: So you say you just went down into
15 the window well where you kicked out the window.
16 Then what did you have to do? What's your next
17 step?
18 JOHN RAMSEY: Then you had reach in to
19 unlatch the window, and if it's stuck, you just
20 pop it open. I mean, I don't remember if I slid in
21 face forward or a turned around. Probably turned
22 around, turn around backwards and put your needs
23 on the ledge here and let your feet in and then
24 just drop down. That's probably how I would have
25 done it?
0221
1 LOU SMIT: Now you say that the time that
2 you went into this window, that was nighttime?
3 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.
4 LOU SMIT: And you say it was about 11:30 at
5 night? Obviously it would be dark at that time?
6 What's your recollection of the difficulty of
7 getting into the house then?
8 JOHN RAMSEY: Well I guess I remember the
9 unknown harm is when you drop the last foot or two
10 in the basement. Because that basement room is
11 always kind of a mess. You're not quite sure what
12 you're going to land in.
13 Once I was in the basement I could find my way to
14 the door. The light switch is over by the door. So
15 you got to be careful because there's a lot of
16 junk in there.
17 LOU SMIT: But you could make your way
18 around? Would you be able to even see?
19 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I remember being able
20 to see real well, I think. Cause there's not
21 (INAUDIBLE) light in that basement room. So unless
22 there was light left on or something in one of the
23 rooms you wouldn't have been --
24 LOU SMIT: So even if (INAUDIBLE) you know
25 where it was? Where's the light switch at if you
0222
1 look at the diagram?
2 JOHN RAMSEY: Right here.
3 LOU SMIT: So you're pointing just to the
4 end of the train room table there?
(SNIP)
0224
22 LOU SMIT: Great. Great. But again, that
23 is the window well. And I'm going to show you some
24 photographs of the window well. And again those
25 are photographs number 418 through 425.
0225
1 MIKE KANE: Can I ask a quick question of
2 John?
3 LOU SMIT: Sure, go ahead.
4 MIKE KANE: You said that this was in the
5 summer. Can you be more specific (INAUDIBLE). You
6 said that Patsy probably got delayed?
7 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I don't remember exactly.
8 I'm just guessing.
9 MIKE KANE: When did she usually go up to --
10 JOHN RAMSEY: They went up usually in the
11 first week of June then came back in the last week
12 of August. So it would have been in that
13 timeframe.
14 MIKE KANE: And she always (INAUDIBLE)?
15 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
16 LOU SMIT: I'll start off first with these.
17 These are photographs that were taken on the 30th
18 of December. And this is a series of photographs,
19 like I mentioned 418 through 425.
20 JOHN RAMSEY: I was really (INAUDIBLE) the
21 ivy is under the grate.
22 LOU SMIT: And what does that signify to
23 you?
24 JOHN RAMSEY: That it had been moved fairly
25 recently. I would have expected that the ivy to be
0226
1 dead. It was (INAUDIBLE) like that
2 LOU SMIT: (INAUDIBLE) because we had seen
3 that also. And I don't want to mislead you.
4 Because, obviously all of us have seen that. And
5 at first we didn't know exactly why that was. But
6 we think a perhaps an officer may have moved that
7 grate. So I just wanted you to know that. Because
8 it's very easy to make the conclusion that it was
9 done.
10 But we have had some real discussion on this and
11 did find out that an officer had moved that grate.
12 I usually don't tell you whether we know about
13 that. But otherwise that's misleading.
14 But that's the same grate in the same area then?
15 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
16 LOU SMIT: Now you replaced that grate
17 completely with a new grate, is that correct?
18 JOHN RAMSEY: Well I think it was replaced,
19 yeah.
20 LOU SMIT: A question I'm dying to ask, does
21 anybody have any photos before the officer thinks
22 he moved the grate?
23 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
24 DAVID WILLIAMS: We can put an end to this
25 if the officer had any recollection.
0227
1 LOU SMIT: That's something that we're still
2 looking into.
3 JOHN RAMSEY: Can we find out what it is that
4 (INAUDIBLE) that the dirt and dust had been
5 disturbed?
6 LOU SMIT: If that's your observation, then
7 it's good.
8 JOHN RAMSEY: When I was there it was July,
9 that was six months earlier.
10 LOU SMIT: I would like to just add something
11 though before we move too much further. I would
12 like to do that. (INAUDIBLE) the wind was very
13 strong in that area. Is It possible that the wind
14 could have done this? That it could have blown
15 into the --
16 JOHN RAMSEY: Disturb the --
17 LOU SMIT: Right.
18 JOHN RAMSEY: It would have blown a lot of
19 dust in there. (INAUDIBLE) to clean it off. I
20 mean, there was a nasty window well with spider
21 wells. It was just dirty.
22 LOU SMIT: And for your information also,
23 there is some spider webs also. I just want to
24 make sure that you're not misled.
25 JOHN RAMSEY: I appreciate it. I mean these
0228
1 spots look clean; cleaner than the rest. That's
2 glass there. A piece of glass there. I don't know
3 why -- I mean if there's enough wind, it kinds of
4 kicks things up. I don't know why this would have
5 been cleaner than the next two. I wouldn't have
6 been down there for six months. I would have
7 expected a more uniform (INAUDIBLE).
8 That's kind of an odd state to be in too.
9 LOU SMIT: Do you remember anything
10 (INAUDIBLE)?
11 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, maybe the top corner
12 where that little circle thing is.
13 LOU SMIT: And you're sure the last time
14 that you were in there was in the summer?
15 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. I'm sure.
16 LOU SMIT: Any questions you'd like to?
17 MIKE KANE: Well I have a lot of questions
18 about the things that we've covered. But I just
19 didn't want interrupt you.
(SNIP)
0238
18 LOU SMIT: I just have one more window.
19 MIKE KANE: I mean, I have other areas.
20 LOU SMIT: What I'm going to show is
21 photograph number 252. In fact, I'll maybe hold it
22 up for the camera, and I'll ask Mr. Ramsey, what
23 does that show?
24 JOHN RAMSEY: Well it shows the window
25 open and the suitcase. But the suitcase, when I
0239
1 first saw it, the suitcase was flat up against the
2 wall and for some reason I felt like that window
3 opened to the other side.
4 LOU SMIT: Any other observations that you
5 (INAUDIBLE)?
6 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know. I realize it
7 looks like just kind of marks on the wall, but I
8 can't --
9 LOU SMIT: On the diagram, John, can you
10 show us where that is?
11 JOHN RAMSEY: We're here.
12 LOU SMIT: Now is that the area that you
13 observed earlier on the 26th and then a little bit
14 later with Fleet White?
15 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
16 LOU SMIT: Does that look similar to that?
17 JOHN RAMSEY: Except for when I was there
18 the suitcase was flat up against the wall.
19 MIKE KANE: When you say flat up against the
20 wall, how do you mean?
21 JOHN RAMSEY: It was standing up like this,
22 only it the light surface was against the wall.
23 LOU SMIT: You said you moved it? Did you
24 mention that?
25 JOHN RAMSEY: I moved it a bit just to see
0240
1 if there was glass. It's funny how you remember
2 things. I swear that window opened from the other
3 side. I guess other than that, I can't see
4 anything.
5 LOU SMIT: Now is this the suitcase you
6 described as John Andrew's suitcase?
7 JOHN RAMSEY: Well it was -- I mean, it
8 looks like it. It looks a little darker but I
9 think it's cause the room is darker. It was like a
10 hard case, a Samsonite suitcase that I think, I
11 think, John Andrew when he came to college, he
12 brought all his stuff out and left it at our
13 house.
14 LOU SMIT: Now you said that you picked up
15 pieces of glass.
16 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.
17 LOU SMIT: A few little pieces.
18 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.
19 LOU SMIT: And did you say you put them on
20 the window well or on the suitcase or do you
21 remember?
22 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember for sure.
23 There wasn't enough there for me to be convinced
24 that the window was broken that morning. I was
25 assuming that it had been broken by me and it
0241
1 hadn't really been fixed.
(SNIP)
0745
9 LOU SMIT: How about in the
10 basement?
11 JOHN RAMSEY: Not at all unless it
12 was just accidental.
13 LOU SMIT: If you were to go down
14 in that basement at night, would you be able to
15 see your way around down there?
16 JOHN RAMSEY: It would be tough.
17 But no lights on, it would be difficult. And
18 there is always a lot of junk around. You know,
19 it was open, the door here usually the light was
20 on in this hall and if you left the door open,
21 it wasn't a very long stairway, it would have
22 provided some illumination probably in this
23 area. But.
24 LOU SMIT: Where was the light
25 switch for that basement?
0746
1 JOHN RAMSEY: It seems to me it
2 was either against that wall or as you went into
3 the basement. Right now I don't remember for
4 sure. There was a light, I think a light bulb
5 right there. You might have had a little street
6 light in this window at night.
7 LOU SMIT: Where was the street
8 light located at?
9 JOHN RAMSEY: Hum, I don't
10 remember. I think there's a telephone pole
11 right in here somewhere.
12 LOU SMIT: In front of the --
13 JOHN RAMSEY: I mean there is one
14 down here maybe. Yeah, they are in front of the
15 house. No, that's not right. The telephone
16 pole is in back of the house. We had a lawn
17 light that was out at the edge of the drive --
18 edge of the sidewalk.
19 LOU SMIT: Was that normally on or
20 off?
21 JOHN RAMSEY: I think it was
22 normally on. It usually was left on all the
23 time.
2 and see if, first of all, can you explain to me
3 how you got into that window, while I'm showing
4 (INAUDIBLE)?
5 JOHN RAMSEY: Well you can just lift the
6 grate out and slide it out, lay it on the ground
7 and then jump down into the well.
8 LOU SMIT: And when you slide it out, what
9 do you mean by sliding it out?
10 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I think there was a
11 couple of supports on the side (INAUDIBLE) went
12 here and just lift that up. I didn't lift it up.
13 LOU SMIT: Right, and then straight down.
14 JOHN RAMSEY: I think I probably lifted it
15 up and just pulled it away from the hole.
16 LOU SMIT: And then did you have any trouble
17 getting in?
18 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
19 LOU SMIT: And how much do you weigh? Right
20 about then?
21 JOHN RAMSEY: Probably about what I do now:
22 195.
23 LOU SMIT: And you're how tall?
24 JOHN RAMSEY: Five ten, nine and a half.
25 LOU SMIT: And you say that you went down
0220
1 in there and you had taken your clothing off?
2 JOHN RAMSEY: I had my suit on, so I took
3 my suit coat off and my pants off so I wouldn't
4 (INAUDIBLE). I might have taken my shirt off. But
5 it's not difficult to get in. it would be
6 difficult to get out; you needed something to step
7 on. But basically you just open the window and
8 just let yourself drop down on the ground.
9 LOU SMIT: Have you ever gotten out that
10 way?
11 JOHN RAMSEY: No. I've (INAUDIBLE) the house.
12 LOU SMIT: Do you know anyone that has?
13 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I don't.
14 LOU SMIT: So you say you just went down into
15 the window well where you kicked out the window.
16 Then what did you have to do? What's your next
17 step?
18 JOHN RAMSEY: Then you had reach in to
19 unlatch the window, and if it's stuck, you just
20 pop it open. I mean, I don't remember if I slid in
21 face forward or a turned around. Probably turned
22 around, turn around backwards and put your needs
23 on the ledge here and let your feet in and then
24 just drop down. That's probably how I would have
25 done it?
0221
1 LOU SMIT: Now you say that the time that
2 you went into this window, that was nighttime?
3 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.
4 LOU SMIT: And you say it was about 11:30 at
5 night? Obviously it would be dark at that time?
6 What's your recollection of the difficulty of
7 getting into the house then?
8 JOHN RAMSEY: Well I guess I remember the
9 unknown harm is when you drop the last foot or two
10 in the basement. Because that basement room is
11 always kind of a mess. You're not quite sure what
12 you're going to land in.
13 Once I was in the basement I could find my way to
14 the door. The light switch is over by the door. So
15 you got to be careful because there's a lot of
16 junk in there.
17 LOU SMIT: But you could make your way
18 around? Would you be able to even see?
19 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I remember being able
20 to see real well, I think. Cause there's not
21 (INAUDIBLE) light in that basement room. So unless
22 there was light left on or something in one of the
23 rooms you wouldn't have been --
24 LOU SMIT: So even if (INAUDIBLE) you know
25 where it was? Where's the light switch at if you
0222
1 look at the diagram?
2 JOHN RAMSEY: Right here.
3 LOU SMIT: So you're pointing just to the
4 end of the train room table there?
(SNIP)
0224
22 LOU SMIT: Great. Great. But again, that
23 is the window well. And I'm going to show you some
24 photographs of the window well. And again those
25 are photographs number 418 through 425.
0225
1 MIKE KANE: Can I ask a quick question of
2 John?
3 LOU SMIT: Sure, go ahead.
4 MIKE KANE: You said that this was in the
5 summer. Can you be more specific (INAUDIBLE). You
6 said that Patsy probably got delayed?
7 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I don't remember exactly.
8 I'm just guessing.
9 MIKE KANE: When did she usually go up to --
10 JOHN RAMSEY: They went up usually in the
11 first week of June then came back in the last week
12 of August. So it would have been in that
13 timeframe.
14 MIKE KANE: And she always (INAUDIBLE)?
15 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
16 LOU SMIT: I'll start off first with these.
17 These are photographs that were taken on the 30th
18 of December. And this is a series of photographs,
19 like I mentioned 418 through 425.
20 JOHN RAMSEY: I was really (INAUDIBLE) the
21 ivy is under the grate.
22 LOU SMIT: And what does that signify to
23 you?
24 JOHN RAMSEY: That it had been moved fairly
25 recently. I would have expected that the ivy to be
0226
1 dead. It was (INAUDIBLE) like that
2 LOU SMIT: (INAUDIBLE) because we had seen
3 that also. And I don't want to mislead you.
4 Because, obviously all of us have seen that. And
5 at first we didn't know exactly why that was. But
6 we think a perhaps an officer may have moved that
7 grate. So I just wanted you to know that. Because
8 it's very easy to make the conclusion that it was
9 done.
10 But we have had some real discussion on this and
11 did find out that an officer had moved that grate.
12 I usually don't tell you whether we know about
13 that. But otherwise that's misleading.
14 But that's the same grate in the same area then?
15 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
16 LOU SMIT: Now you replaced that grate
17 completely with a new grate, is that correct?
18 JOHN RAMSEY: Well I think it was replaced,
19 yeah.
20 LOU SMIT: A question I'm dying to ask, does
21 anybody have any photos before the officer thinks
22 he moved the grate?
23 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
24 DAVID WILLIAMS: We can put an end to this
25 if the officer had any recollection.
0227
1 LOU SMIT: That's something that we're still
2 looking into.
3 JOHN RAMSEY: Can we find out what it is that
4 (INAUDIBLE) that the dirt and dust had been
5 disturbed?
6 LOU SMIT: If that's your observation, then
7 it's good.
8 JOHN RAMSEY: When I was there it was July,
9 that was six months earlier.
10 LOU SMIT: I would like to just add something
11 though before we move too much further. I would
12 like to do that. (INAUDIBLE) the wind was very
13 strong in that area. Is It possible that the wind
14 could have done this? That it could have blown
15 into the --
16 JOHN RAMSEY: Disturb the --
17 LOU SMIT: Right.
18 JOHN RAMSEY: It would have blown a lot of
19 dust in there. (INAUDIBLE) to clean it off. I
20 mean, there was a nasty window well with spider
21 wells. It was just dirty.
22 LOU SMIT: And for your information also,
23 there is some spider webs also. I just want to
24 make sure that you're not misled.
25 JOHN RAMSEY: I appreciate it. I mean these
0228
1 spots look clean; cleaner than the rest. That's
2 glass there. A piece of glass there. I don't know
3 why -- I mean if there's enough wind, it kinds of
4 kicks things up. I don't know why this would have
5 been cleaner than the next two. I wouldn't have
6 been down there for six months. I would have
7 expected a more uniform (INAUDIBLE).
8 That's kind of an odd state to be in too.
9 LOU SMIT: Do you remember anything
10 (INAUDIBLE)?
11 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, maybe the top corner
12 where that little circle thing is.
13 LOU SMIT: And you're sure the last time
14 that you were in there was in the summer?
15 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. I'm sure.
16 LOU SMIT: Any questions you'd like to?
17 MIKE KANE: Well I have a lot of questions
18 about the things that we've covered. But I just
19 didn't want interrupt you.
(SNIP)
0238
18 LOU SMIT: I just have one more window.
19 MIKE KANE: I mean, I have other areas.
20 LOU SMIT: What I'm going to show is
21 photograph number 252. In fact, I'll maybe hold it
22 up for the camera, and I'll ask Mr. Ramsey, what
23 does that show?
24 JOHN RAMSEY: Well it shows the window
25 open and the suitcase. But the suitcase, when I
0239
1 first saw it, the suitcase was flat up against the
2 wall and for some reason I felt like that window
3 opened to the other side.
4 LOU SMIT: Any other observations that you
5 (INAUDIBLE)?
6 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know. I realize it
7 looks like just kind of marks on the wall, but I
8 can't --
9 LOU SMIT: On the diagram, John, can you
10 show us where that is?
11 JOHN RAMSEY: We're here.
12 LOU SMIT: Now is that the area that you
13 observed earlier on the 26th and then a little bit
14 later with Fleet White?
15 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
16 LOU SMIT: Does that look similar to that?
17 JOHN RAMSEY: Except for when I was there
18 the suitcase was flat up against the wall.
19 MIKE KANE: When you say flat up against the
20 wall, how do you mean?
21 JOHN RAMSEY: It was standing up like this,
22 only it the light surface was against the wall.
23 LOU SMIT: You said you moved it? Did you
24 mention that?
25 JOHN RAMSEY: I moved it a bit just to see
0240
1 if there was glass. It's funny how you remember
2 things. I swear that window opened from the other
3 side. I guess other than that, I can't see
4 anything.
5 LOU SMIT: Now is this the suitcase you
6 described as John Andrew's suitcase?
7 JOHN RAMSEY: Well it was -- I mean, it
8 looks like it. It looks a little darker but I
9 think it's cause the room is darker. It was like a
10 hard case, a Samsonite suitcase that I think, I
11 think, John Andrew when he came to college, he
12 brought all his stuff out and left it at our
13 house.
14 LOU SMIT: Now you said that you picked up
15 pieces of glass.
16 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.
17 LOU SMIT: A few little pieces.
18 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.
19 LOU SMIT: And did you say you put them on
20 the window well or on the suitcase or do you
21 remember?
22 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember for sure.
23 There wasn't enough there for me to be convinced
24 that the window was broken that morning. I was
25 assuming that it had been broken by me and it
0241
1 hadn't really been fixed.
(SNIP)
0745
9 LOU SMIT: How about in the
10 basement?
11 JOHN RAMSEY: Not at all unless it
12 was just accidental.
13 LOU SMIT: If you were to go down
14 in that basement at night, would you be able to
15 see your way around down there?
16 JOHN RAMSEY: It would be tough.
17 But no lights on, it would be difficult. And
18 there is always a lot of junk around. You know,
19 it was open, the door here usually the light was
20 on in this hall and if you left the door open,
21 it wasn't a very long stairway, it would have
22 provided some illumination probably in this
23 area. But.
24 LOU SMIT: Where was the light
25 switch for that basement?
0746
1 JOHN RAMSEY: It seems to me it
2 was either against that wall or as you went into
3 the basement. Right now I don't remember for
4 sure. There was a light, I think a light bulb
5 right there. You might have had a little street
6 light in this window at night.
7 LOU SMIT: Where was the street
8 light located at?
9 JOHN RAMSEY: Hum, I don't
10 remember. I think there's a telephone pole
11 right in here somewhere.
12 LOU SMIT: In front of the --
13 JOHN RAMSEY: I mean there is one
14 down here maybe. Yeah, they are in front of the
15 house. No, that's not right. The telephone
16 pole is in back of the house. We had a lawn
17 light that was out at the edge of the drive --
18 edge of the sidewalk.
19 LOU SMIT: Was that normally on or
20 off?
21 JOHN RAMSEY: I think it was
22 normally on. It usually was left on all the
23 time.